Taiwan Matters Podcast
Taiwan Matters Podcast
Taiwan and the WHO
Can Taiwan regain a seat a the World Health Organization.
Taiwan's success battling Covid-19 and China's cover up have boosted international support for Taiwan's bid for, at the least, observer status at the next meeting of the WHO General Assembly on May 20th.
Host Nicholas Gould interviews US defacto ambassador, AIT Director William Brent Christenesen; Foundation Medical Professional Alliance Taiwan CEO, Lin Shih-jia; Senior counsel Pontis Law and Global Health Scholar, Georgetown University Law Center, Liu Han Hsi.
Several events are unfolded simultaneously to bring international attention to Taiwan's case. President Trump stopped US payments to the WHO while Washington investigates popssible worngdoing on the part of WHO Director General Tedros Adhoman Gherbreyesus, suspected of helping China cover up the severity of the virus outbreak in Wuhan and delaying the response of the WHO.
The success Taiwan had with its quick response to preventing the virus taking hold in Taiwan has won it praise from political leaders and major media editorials on an unprecendented scale lifting its international profile.
On March 16th President Trump signed into law the TAIPEI Act which requires Washington to support Taiwan's diplomatic alliances. The next day, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo pledged US support for Taiwan's participation in the WHO.
Leading up the May 20th assembly both China and Taiwan are engaged in "face-mask" diplomacy as each is making donations of much needed medical equipment.
Included as a bonus is the song WHO by the Taiwan rap artist Dawgei.
You cannot pretend this country o r the 2 3 million population doesn't exist i n world. We are we're here and we just t ravel, c ommunicate, do business a round t he w orld. If you really care the health for all people, its global. You should not ignore us and pretend it does not exists.
Speaker 2:This time is not only a great opportunity for Taiwan to join, WHO, to be a member, to be an observer and a very good time to tell the world Taiwan is Taiwan, not China,
Speaker 3:We sometimes describe our relationship with Taiwan, with the phrase real friends, real progress. And in a crises like this we really need the support of all our friends.
Speaker 1:I'm Nicholas Gould. And on this edition of Taiwan matters podcast, we're talking about the building diplomatic showdown between China and the United States at the next general assembly of the United nations world health organization. On May 20th. Pressure is building to allow Taiwan to have back at least the observer status it lost in the who four years ago, when China kicked it out to signal its displeasure with the decidedly anti China tying when being elected president of Taiwan, we'll be talking today with the U S defacto ambassador to Taiwan AIT director, William Christiansen on Washington's stepped up role in pushing for Taiwan's who admission also with us is former Taiwan lawmaker, and now executive director of the foundation of medical professionals Alliance in Taiwan. Lin Shih Jia on lobbying for Taiwan's admission to the who. We also talk with Taiwan law maker and global health scholar from the Georgetown university law center, Leo Han Shi, making the case for reforming the WHO. By the way, the song you heard bits of at the beginning of this show is from Taiwan rapper, Dwan Jia. I think it captures the range of emotions people in Taiwan are feeling about COVID-19, China and the WHO. I've included the full version at the end of the show, so you can hear the whole song. Several trends are unfolding simultaneously to elevate the question of Taiwan's WHO membership into a highly anticipated news story. Primary among them is the unprecedented positive media coverage Taiwan has gotten for its success in controlling COVID-19. After 30 years of struggling to raise its international profile, finally, Taiwan is being praised with editorials of major publications, such as Time magazine, The Economist, and The Wall Street Journal to name only a few. And world leaders and politicians are citing Taiwan for having among the lowest levels of infections or deaths, a feat, even more impressive, given that at the outset John Hopkins university forecast Taiwan would be the second hardest hit area after China because of the nearly 1 million Taiwanese that live and work in China. Taiwan has not had to impose lock downs or shelter in place measures. Schools, and the economy remained open for business. Meanwhile, the U S has opened an investigation on whether China covered up the initial virus outbreak, allowing COVID-19 to spread around the world and the WHO is also under fire for being too obsequious to China, downplaying the severity of the virus in the critical early weeks of the outbreak. President Trump has announced he is stopping US payments to the WHO. Already fraught tensions between China and the U S weren't helped with the passage by the US Congress in March of the Taipei act a law aimed at countering China's efforts to isolate Taiwan in the international community. As soon as Trump signed the bill, secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, publicly expressed support for Taiwan participation in WHO. As these various events unfold, China has increased flying fighter jets and bombers through Taiwan airspace, and the US has countered by sending an aircraft carrier group closer to Taiwan. Let's hear now from AIT director, William Christiansen... Director Christiansen thank you for joining us on Taiwan Matters Podcast. It seems that there is no other news in the world right now than COVID-19. How has the pandemic affected your work and relations between Taiwan and the United States?
Ambassador Christensen:Well, I would certainly agree that all of our efforts these days are also focused on COVID-19. I would say in terms of its impact on the U S, Taiwan relationship, our relationship with Taiwan is very broad, very deep. We sometimes describe our relationship with Taiwan, with the phrase, real friends, real progress, and a crisis like this. We certainly need the support of all of our friends. But I would also add t hat the U S Taiwan partnership is founded on our shared values. And that would mean things like political values, like freedom of speech, economic values, IPR protection, international values like helping other countries a nd solving global problems. And on h is last point, t he United States and Taiwan w ill be working together to provide both assistance and expertise to countries around the world, struggling to manage the impacts of the COVID-19 p andemics.
Host:Recently the United States passed two bills, and both of these bills charged the United States with helping Taiwan in its international relations. How do you see that going forward on WHO? Do you see the U S taking some specific steps in that regard?
Ambassador Christensen:Well, the United States has a long standing policy of supporting Taiwan,'s full membership and international organizations that do not require statehood, and meaningful participation in international organizations that do- like the WHO. from 2009 to 2016, the WHO allowed Taiwan to attend its annual general meeting- the world health assembly- as an observer. And we ask the WHO to reinstate that status. Taiwan's success in managing the COVID-19 pandemic underscores, why Taiwan deserves to be a table. So on the one hand Taiwan's exclusion from WHO actually weakened the global response to COVID-19. On the other hand, Taiwan has emerged as a world model in public health and countries can greatly benefit from more opportunities to learn about the Taiwan model and the many other areas where Taiwan has world class expertise to share.
Host:Only a few months ago, Taiwan would have been satisfied to get this unambiguous support for observer status, but now it seems Taiwan is emboldened to go further and apply for full membership. This week, president Tsai called for meaningful participation in WHO at a level greater than it had before as an observer and calling into question the legal basis the WHO says prevents Taiwan from being a full member. U S former national security advisor, John Bolton tweeted recently that given Taiwan's efforts fighting the Corona virus, the U S should consider extending full diplomatic ties with Taiwan. The foundation for medical professionals Alliance Taiwan is an NGO spearheading Taiwan's lobbying effort for participation in WHO. Taiwan Matters Podcast spoke with the head of the foundation Lin Shih Jia. Madam Lin, I want to thank you for joining Taiwan Matters. These are definitely very interesting times when it comes to Taiwan's efforts to get back into the WHO. Given the next meeting of the WHO assembly in May, do you see that the issue...the question of Taiwan will come up?
Lin Shih Jia:Yes. It is a very great opportunity for Taiwan to join the organization, to be a member. We always think that Taiwan should be a member, even though Americans want Taiwan to be an observer. Because we are a state, okay. This assembly maybe postpone, but I think it is a very good opportunity, and it must be talking about, about the Taiwan issue, because a lot of countries, I think they want to know the experience of our policies
Host:To understand Taiwan's response to the Corona virus and appreciate the level of how prepared it was with a whole of government, 120 step plan. We have to go back to its experience with the SARS epidemic of 2003. That experience accounts for why Taiwan believes it should be in the WHO. To explain here is attorney at law and Georgetown public health scholar, Lin Han Hsi.
Lin Han Hsi:Well, let me tell you a true and a sad story about SARS in 2003. Going back to early 2003, Taiwan has the first confirmed case of SARS. So, the patient is the business man and frequently travel from China and Taiwan. We find that this case, and we try to contact WHO for help, but didn't get their response. Our CDC had this viral strain. So we want to compare it with the virus strain WHO and the China had, but they don't provide this information to us. So our CDC cannot compare with these two virus to identify this is a SARS case. So, we can see what to use as the right treatment to the patient. And so in the end, it caused more than 70 people deaths, including more than 10 healthcare workers. These deaths, I believe is most likely avoidable if we get this information on time. So this loss really give a lesson to people here. So, if we, like other countries, can have this access to WHO and their information, I think these things would be quite different. And that's a, I will say is the legitimacy for Taiwan to have access to the WHO. You cannot pretend this country or the 23 million population doesn't exist in the world. We are here and we just travel and we communicated to do business around the world. If you really care the health for all the people globally, you should not just ignore and pretend Taiwan doesn't exist.
Host:The WHO has taken a lot of criticism for its handling of this pandemic just recently, U S president Trump. He was publicly saying he was going to withhold funds from WHO Because of its being too deferential to China. Do you think he's right? How do you judge, WHO's behavior?
Lin Han Hsi:One of the critical problem or issue in this COVID-19 pandemic is China always says- the Chinese Communist Party-- has a big problem on getting and sharing the accurate data to other country to WHO. WHO has this guideline, its protocol and the best scientists and experts to determine what's the right timing to declare a pandemic. But they need accurate data to make t he judgment call, but they don't have that, because you c an even say the Chinese government they didn't have that, because the local governments, maybe don't want to share all information to the central government. And, the Central Government didn't have the accurate data. How to solve this problem. I think that there's a problem for China. There's a problem for tWHO too, because WHO should know t here i s a data problem in China, so they c annot 100% rely on their data. So they should find other resources. I say, maybe Taiwan, or maybe our native country neighbor, country, or other r esource, they should send their expert. If i t i s possible to China, to really invest in t he, a nd to g et the right data. So L isa r eform i s necessary for who in the future. All t hese suggestion that quitting is that has to be provided by. I t probably has e xperts a nd scholars, but they are too small c ompare with this p olitical leader for the powerful country that a u s, this political leader, that president Trump, other p resident should take the responsibility to make sure who h as a reform. And t hey have the better functioning future and h aving a farm right or not. But it's t he one thing really to trigger this reform because it's painful.
Host:The director general of who Ted inaudible] used to be the foreign affairs minister of Ethiopia. Following a meeting with China's Xi Jinping in January[inaudible] has praised what he called the China model for handling the Corona virus crisis. Those comments touched off a lot of debate among health experts, supporters of Hebraic maintained. It was important to encourage and keep China engaged in the midst of the crisis. But critics accused[inaudible] of pandering and failing to recognize misleading statements from China in the critical first weeks of the outbreak, Taiwan was aware of reports from doctors in wool Han of a new atypical pneumonia with the potential to be similar to SARS throughout December. One of those doctors was Lee. When Leon, who was censored for spreading rumors and forced to retract his statements, dr. Lee would die from Corona virus. Taiwan says it sent an email to the who on December 31st to alert who they suspect in a contagious atypical virus in woo hot and asked who to share further information with Taiwan. Taiwan never received a reply who denies the story in any event, Taiwan, wasn't waiting for the who it started its pandemic response plan. The same day, stockpiling face masks and medical supplies and conducting onboard quarantining of passengers on planes for Mohan. Meanwhile, as late as January 14th, China was telling who there was no evidence of human to human transmission. We rejoin Lin Shih Jia on what are the lessons of the Taiwan model, managing Corona virus? What do you think some of the lessons are that the world could learn from?
Lin Shih Jia:And the lesson here is late. We don't have to be in a authoritarian country to fight her. The TDS it's done. As you know, you, you should not trust her in also Rotarian countries. We all know lead China cannot be trusted. How uncons serve as a role model for other countries. They'd always organize the government committee to democracy can deal with the outbreak. Well,
Host:Do you think it was right for the who to praise China on the way it handled COVID-19
Lin Shih Jia:Of course it's not. Right. Then the mission of who is to support all Allah countries to compare the TDS. Therefore we don't sync w H O she'll spend time, um, pressing China for a more is hope he, yeah. Is also one of the priority countries of China's one belt, one road initiative. Give me such relations between the cathedrals and the China. This is exactly the region that w H O tend to praise China's response to the outbreak. Instead of insisting on his own professional STEM, more ever, China is seeking to expand his own power in you and system by supporting Chinese people, to be the high label pollution in international organizations, it is common for every country to expand his own inference. However, in China case, it is using you and to suppress countries that has different opinion and ideology. And it is where the crisis of the global democracy running force Covey 19 is just a star. If we do not do our best to fight a bet in time more in the more global institution will be controlled by China. Eventually in consequences, when Allah crisis came up, the furthest thing come to my for this institution is not about people's safety, but speaking up for China for their own interests, I think it is
Host:Facing mounting criticism, signature campaigns for his resignation, as well as online personal attacks. The director general held a news conference where he named names. If you wanted me to be specific three months ago, this attack came from Taiwan. We need to be honest. I will be straight today from Taiwan and Taiwan, the foreign minister. Also, they know the campaign, they didn't dissociate themselves. They even started criticizing me in the middle of all that insight, Dan slur, but I didn't care three months I say today, because it's enough. We rejoin our conversation with Taiwan, lawyer, and scholar of global health at Georgetown university, the old hand sheet, the attacks against the who have just gotten more and more heated. It's actually turned to focus on director general, Ted droves. Now he's was just elected last year. So he's got another three year term. There's been a lot of calls from different sources, different countries asking him to resign. Do you think that he should, or he will I'll cause I have a lot of come in and present opinion, but I didn't say it in public because I think
Lin Han Hsi:We still need this leadership to, against this COVID-19. But until yesterday, as we saw in us media, like he publicly announced ministry of a folio failed, Howard MoFA is behind Abbey, all of this attack against him personally. So I feel like, okay, he just kind of stopped what against Taiwan and the people here. I think there's a good thing and a bad thing, by the way. I think he kind of violated one China policy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like if powered really a promise of China, everything haven't, they should go back to China. So tissues complained to China, but apparently how is not part of China? He kind of admitted that by his reaction, he said, Taiwan MoFA ministry of foreign affairs attacking key though. This issue finally be put on the table. Even the gentleman who mentioned that Taiwan. So that's a good thing because they didn't really discuss Taiwan in a, in a, on the table. Everyone knows that, but it's just pretending we didn't exist. But of course there is just like you say, the DG is taking his personality yet. He will give us more challenge in the difficulty to get into a who during his DJ period, We might have to wait three years until the next DG selection process. Yeah. So I think these tie, like people will pay more attention to that for the last a DG election. My professor[inaudible] and other scholars publish your article in the Lenzer discussion, like a step up Kendall. And I did it like compare a table and chart to compare with several candidates for this DG. But I don't think outside is the academia SOCOM people really care about like the DG election, but I'm sure that next time that people around what we really care about, what kind of DG we have is really have inference impact on our house
Host:From a Taiwan perspective. Who would you like to see nominated for that position?
Lin Han Hsi:At least there's a people from the country really believe this transparency, integrity, good governors is always the value we appreciate in the freedom of speech. Uh, these kinds of value. I think it should be okay. It should be good. So no matter which County,
Host:Given the organizational structure of the who, what kind of reforms do you think will be necessary when these reforms lead to greater acceptance of Taiwan's participation?
Lin Han Hsi:Well, how to reform the, who? It could be like a severance of the article, a paper published about discuss lad and a list of more expert in Kansas Christian. But what I want to say is that because it's Taiwan and I'm currently scarring and attorney. So I will say to encourage you the more private or non-government or dilation participation. And there is kind of partnership between who, because there is resources limit, but a lot people, a lot of group can contribute to who, including Taiwan and wanted to contribute the to, but for only political reason who refuse our welding of participation and contribution. So this kind of things they should, we should avoid in the future. They should just open to more people and they should provide a platform for more organization, more individual, more private sector to participate, to contribute to the house for all that's their goal is their house for all. So that all, she means like a[inaudible] in a war, including tardies free media. As people here in Taiwan,
Host:As Taiwan emerges from the pandemic, it has started donating literally tons of much needed medical supplies around the world, including to the U S Taiwan, which mobilized its surgical mask production capability and can now produce 13 million face masks a day is also donating them around the world. China and Taiwan are engaged in a face mask diplomacy for China. It's about changing the narrative of the pandemic as starting in[inaudible] for Taiwan. It's about gaining recognition in Goodwill, which it will need, if it has any chance to get into the who, once again, lyncher gr besides the United States or in addition to the United States, which countries do you think will come out to support Taiwan?
Lin Shih Jia:I think a lot of country, for example, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, England, France, Germany, Finland, and I seen this this time, a lot of the precedent of other country, they are talking about Taiwan. So I think that if this time of government can apply to be a member, as in a lot of country will support Taiwan,
Host:China is trying to use, it's a donation of medical equipment to get Goodwill from other countries and trying to improve its reputation. Do you see those efforts as making progress or helping China?
Lin Shih Jia:It will not work because the outbreak come from China. Okay. This time. So many people died because the virus comes from China. Taiwan has, um, sent the information to the virtual to alarm because it is not a member of the virtual soldiers. What information where it's not it because China always said, how is paddle paddle Kim? So who cannot sure tell us information. And there's so many people died in this outbreak. And so I sing to me, I think that a lot of country fate to China, that very negative attitude, this time, not only the great opportunity for Taiwan to join who
Host:I asked AIT director, William Christiansen, if he felt there was a risk due to the animosity towards Beijing of Washington, being motivated to push for Taiwan admission to the who as a way of gaining political points over China.
Ambassador Christensen:Well, I would say that Taiwan's transparent and effective approach to preventing the spread of COVID-19 is itself the best argument for including Taiwan and the who. And I would point out that actually excluding Taiwan from the who not only violates the charter of the organization, but it also defies common sense.
Host:U S support for Taiwan's participation in international organizations has been a longstanding policy of the United States, but there does seem to be something very different about this time because of the, of the virus. Do you think that, that it's, it's different this time around?
Ambassador Christensen:Well, I hope that we can seize the opportunity of Taiwan success in managing the, uh, the COVID-19 pandemic to highlight just how much Taiwan can contribute and Taiwan, as I'm sure you've seen a lot of media outlets have been highlighting how successful Taiwan has been. Uh, we, we hope to really take advantage of this new prominence the Taiwan has achieved. And I would point to, to the economist piece that explicitly called for Taiwan to become NWHL member, which was a pretty remarkable thing to see when you have, uh, major publications like the economist calling for Taiwan, to be included in the who we should take advantage of that kind of momentum to press for Taiwan, to at least have a closer relationship with who that allows it to make the contribution that it genuinely can make
Host:Director Christianson. Thank you very much for joining us on Taiwan matters podcast. It's been a pleasure having you
Ambassador Christensen:Well, I'm glad that you're doing this podcast. Certainly I am. I've been a big supporter of Taiwan for many years, and Taiwan does matter. The series you're doing is really worthwhile.
Host:Thank you very much. AIT director, William Christiansen. I also want to thank my other two guests on the show. Executive director of the foundation of medical professionals, Alliance of Taiwan, lyncher gr and senior counsel at Taiwan law firm, Pontus and global health scholar from Georgetown university law center. The Ohana sheet, be sure to visit Taiwan matters, podcast.com for information about today's speakers and useful links on today's topic. I also welcome your comments. Let me know what you thought of the show